Let's Marinate » The Marinade

  1. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    An Iowa man was convicted of possessing child pornography last week because some of the books in his vast collection of Japanese manga (comics) appeared to depict minors engaged in sexual acts. How exactly can a court determine whether a comic book character is a "minor" or not?

    39-year-old Christopher Handley, an office worker, was brought up on charges of possessing child pornography in 2006 when customs officials seized a package for him. It contained several manga, some of which were "lolicon" that showed what officials said were children being sexually abused. There were also images of bestiality. Handley has a huge collection of manga, and only a few are lolicon. He also had absolutely no child pornography of any description in his house or on his computer.

    Nevertheless, Handley entered a guilty plea. According to Threat Level, it was simply because his attorney had exhausted all other options:

    ...

    In the United States, the original intent of the child pornography laws was to protect children from sexual abuse. The idea is that when actual, living children (not images of them) participate in the making of sexual images, they are harmed. The US Supreme Court heard a case in 1982 (New York v. Ferber) whose outcome, in short, made any sexual images containing minors obscene and illegal - even if those images had redeeming social value. New York v. Ferber did not cover fictional images, only photography and film which involved actual children.

    The Protect Act dramatically expands the scope of laws permitted under Ferber. But will actual children be protected by sending a man to prison for collecting fictional comic books?

    http://io9.com/5272107/manga-collection-ruled-child-pornography-by-us-court

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. B2theREdoubleT

    Jive Turkey
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,676

    what i think and what is actually gonna go down in the Bureaucracy of today are two different things but...

    the japs definatly push the envelope as far as making characters look young and innocent. If your into the story i understand, but sometimes its not very tasteful.

    i can draw pictures of naked people all day long, take me to jail if you think my stick figures look 8 years old is what i say.

    since the dude seems pretty innocent i would have to say if there is no other substantial evidence that this dude is into child porn then why is he being bothered?

    people just dont get along? i dunno

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    The government's press release states, "Handley faces a maximum of 15 years in prison, a maximum fine of $250,000, and a three-year term of supervised release." Additionally, he forfeits all property seized in his prosecution.

    ::

    this is total and complete bullshit. the japs can push the envelope all they want, but when it comes down to it this guy had some comic books - one of the american comics i have (that you've read too, brett - The Sandman) has a story arc about the rape and murder of children by a group of pedophiles (who are subsequently messed up by The Sandman), a few panels of which could be construed in this same way. should we do 15 years? i don't know about you, but no one's taking me to jail for reading a comic book.

    and the reason he's being bothered is because all of our freedoms are being systematically destroyed by the government, most people just don't really care and believe nonsense like having all of our communications monitored is going to stop terrorist attacks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. meowli

    Ate Skin
    Joined: May '09
    Posts: 399

    All in all I’d say this is pretty ridiculous. I don’t understand how a law that is intended to protect living breathing children extends to drawings. Is this a slippery slope? Next, we prosecute those who read Batman for vigilantism?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. meowli

    Ate Skin
    Joined: May '09
    Posts: 399

    Other considerations:

    Upon discussing this thread with my colleague, we realized that it’s just too ridiculous. There must have been some other motivation for having this guy prosecuted for a comic book. Was there an election coming up? We’re thinking an official may have had to look extra “tough on child pornography”. Maybe some attorney was trying to make a name for him/herself and get on TV?

    I just can’t believe that a person with an IQ higher than a jar of mayonnaise thought this was what child pornography laws were meant to do, ideally…

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. B2theREdoubleT

    Jive Turkey
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,676

    ok ive actually done some reading, and im gonna say that (without knowing actually which manga he had) the dude is a sick fucker.

    lolicon is not anime, its comics all about young girls. its not tasteful in any way. you should not be offended that the government is going after this guy. its not a strike against people who watch tasteful anime.

    wikipedia has a few stories about people who read that stuff. about the dude who admitted to reading lolicon because child porno is illegal... i mean... i can see that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. B2theREdoubleT

    Jive Turkey
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,676

    lolicon Pictures, Images and Photos

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. B2theREdoubleT

    Jive Turkey
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,676

    lolicon Pictures, Images and Photos

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. LisaMarie

    Keystone
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 4,001

    I have been saying this ALL along... some of it definitely crosses the line! Hence, the pictures Brett just posted. It's not OK imo.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. LisaMarie

    Keystone
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 4,001

    lolicon

    Please try and tell me those are NOT children.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. LisaMarie

    Keystone
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 4,001

    http://renkinjutsu.animeblogger.net/wp-content/uploads/lolicon.jpg

    you clearly see boobies here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    meli: yer. i mean, he did live in iowa or something, though ICE is federal so depending on where his package was intercepted you would hope those people weren't ignorant hicks.

    brett: the fact that lolicon is not normal anime or manga does not matter; 95+% of people in this country see japanese style drawings and lump it all together. if this becomes a precedent, do you really think a jury of our "peers" will be able to distingush between this and regular anime, let alone normal hentai? did you ever watch that anime Azumanga Daioh? hilarious slapstick comedy that followed a group of female friends from middle school to graduation, nothing racy, but do you really think it would matter if the prosecution pulled out screenshots of the episode where they go to the beach? nope, young girls in swimsuits would probably equal jail.

    sick fucker or not, he should be able to read whatever he wants. it's a comic book! you don't have to agree with it, but i don't agree with a lot of the sad ass things that happen in this country anyway. as nice as it would be if it was, it's not illegal to be a nazi. they searched his house, computers, etc, and found no "real" child pornography.

    "about the dude who admitted to reading lolicon because child porno is illegal... i mean... i can see that." exactly. i shoot people in the face online so i don't shoot people in the face in real life. we've been hearing the same argument having to do with video games for years.

    "Milton Diamond and Ayako Uchiyama observe a strong correlation between the dramatic rise of pornographic material in Japan from the 1970s onwards and a dramatic decrease in reported sexual violence, including crimes by juveniles and assaults on children under 13. They cite similar findings in Denmark and West Germany. In their summary, they state that the concern that countries with widespread availability of sexually explicit material would suffer increased rates of sexual crimes was not validated..."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    and i don't think anyone has tried to argue that these manga are not depicting children... just the fact that it's a comic book.

    what about all the just-turned-18 porn filled with young looking girls in cheerleader outfits? it's no problem attempting to depict women as young as possible, except when it's in a manga where there's no way to verify age, because it's not real?

    #5 related thread says it all

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. B2theREdoubleT

    Jive Turkey
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,676

    i have to agree with you about the shooting people in the face thing, you've been playing that line for years. its all the person i suppose.

    also, what you suggest about trial by peers - a just thought.

    even though i do agree that this stuff crosses a line, i actually cant understand why this guy actually got busted for it.

    reading a little about the PROTECT act, its an act in place to make sure kids aren't abused or subjected to abuse via the media. i think there was also a little part in there about how it was extended to cover "virtual" child porn, which includes cg drawings and things of that nature. there is nothing that says that lolicon is illegal, there are just a bunch of rules to diagnose something as grotesque.

    actually, reading more into it, they really draw a fuzzy line, almost like an illusion. they try and say that if it can be considered "art" as a matter of expression, it is thus deemed tasteful, and is no longer considered porn. this is pretty dangerous because in a few instances they choose to include a lower half to an otherwise awesome drawing with a lot of artistic value.

    i mean... they are throwing beeve shots in where beeve shots dont need to be. showing this and that, eventually someone is gonna cross the line between artistic and just sick. alarm just went off, shit just happened.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    in conclusion,

    thanks to those who participated in this intelligent discussion of an issue that in and of itself doesn't really matter that much, but which may have a very broad effect on our freedoms in the future.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. carolizzle

    CHINA!
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 3,613

    i feel like i'm getting flagged or something by the government just for having looked at this thread because of the images posted on it. just to avoid any confusion in the future, let it be known that i am anti-kiddie porn. that's all :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Krust

    addjole
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 1,662

    Haha! nice Caro. I agree also very anti kiddie-porn. However, I'm a little worried by this case. It's pretty ridiculous. I mean they are drawings. What about the person who actually drew them? Why isn't he in trouble? or the people that published and sold the comics. Because, they are drawings. I agree that some can be distasteful. Whatever. My biggest concern after reading about this was about some art by an Artist, that I own by Trevor Brown. He draws a lot of pretty little girls almost like dolls. Now, sometimes he gets pretty riskyyy. He has drawn them nude and doing vulgar things. The set of drawings I own are extremely tame compared to his other stuff, because some of his stuff totally makes me uncomfortable. I do really just enjoy the way he draws faces and one of my favorites is of a little girl eating worms, which sounds gross. But, it's kind cute, in a weird way.
    I don't know where I'm going with this. I just think it's a little too much to get in trouble for owning comic books.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Gnargoyle

    <3 NY
    Joined: Mar '09
    Posts: 33

    I think this whole thing goes to show we're not as "free" as we thought we were. When we scratch the surface of what we're fed by the government and the corporations it's pretty obvious that we're increasingly having the noose of control tighten more and more. The pictures posted above are obviously drawn to look like little girls and that's fucking disgusting. But they're drawings. They're not real life renderings of children. They're very much in the manga style of illustration which you can learn by picking up a book at any bookstore pretty much. And if that dude looked at those lolicon comic books and not at a real picture of some little girl or boy then good. Glad they exist. But why was customs looking a package of books? Why did his lawyer just give up? Why is he being threatened with 15 years of jail time, and probably a lifetime of hardship because he'll most likely have to register as a sex offender? (don't know what the laws in Iowa are so can't say that for sure) That's the kind of shit that scares me. If manga in america was a multi-billion dollar industry like video games then I don't think this thread would exist. Sorry to get all conspiracy theory on everyone. I'm really not that crazy and I don't wear aluminum foil on my head. Kristina will confirm that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    the only reason i don't wear a tinfoil hat is that i'm sure that DARPA has something to get around them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. zigx

    1:1.618
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 7,737

    in a similar vein

    Get the Video Player

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. zigx

    1:1.618
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 7,737

    and pretty much unrelated, i stumbled across this pic of harley:

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. harley

    >:(
    Joined: Sep '07
    Posts: 3,318

    sometimes you just need a reminder

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. carolizzle

    CHINA!
    Joined: Oct '07
    Posts: 3,613

    LOL! that's fantastic. he looks so sad :(

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.

Supported video provider:

youtube, myvideo, funnyordie, gametrailers, collegehumor, dailymotion, glumbert, liveleak, redtube, googlevideo, sevenload, metacafe, clipfish, vimeo